LInks to Articles regarding Al Andalus

Compiled in June of 2008

http://avatarandanima.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/conference-the-future-of-religionsreligions-of-the-future/

http://ets.tlt.psu.edu/gaming/node/470

http://avatarandanima.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/metaverse-reading-the-culture-of-islam/

http://avatarandanima.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/landed/

http://schome.open.ac.uk/wikiworks/index.php/User:Rebecca

http://thegreatslexpedition.blogspot.com/2008/04/beth-shalom-synagogue.html

http://slinside.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1173&Itemid=1

http://1neojanus.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/le-califat-dal-andalus-dans-second-life/

http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/09/13/al-andalus-caliphate-opens/

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/09/the-lawyer-and-.html

http://evansavenue.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/refueled/

http://www.theseventhsun.com/1007_alAndalus.htm

http://www.slnn.com/index.php?SCREEN=article&about=alandalus-celebration

http://www.slnn.com/index.php?SCREEN=article&sid=WdIiomKrUpTbFrla&about=alandulus&page=1

http://iheartsl.com/2008/06/09/al-andalus/

law discussion, meeting 2

[19:03] Aileen Zessinthal: hello :)
[19:03] muhammedyussif Wikinger: hi
[19:04] Rose Springvale: hello!
[19:04] Aileen Zessinthal: hi, Rose :D
[19:04] Rose Springvale: satir!
[19:04] Rose Springvale: aileen!
[19:04] Rose Springvale: i'm a bit scattered tonight .. how are you doing?
[19:05] Rose Springvale: muhammed, did you get cold?
[19:05] muhammedyussif Wikinger: cold?
[19:05] Rose Springvale: hey cindy!
[19:05] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[19:05] Cindy Ecksol: hey rose!
[19:05] Rose Springvale: is that a new scarf?
[19:05] Aileen Zessinthal: hello, everyone, nice to meet you
[19:06] Cindy Ecksol: missed part of the meeting earlier so I figured I'd come down and catch what I missed
[19:06] Aileen Zessinthal: asalam aleykum
[19:06] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok - yes - we have cold weather here in Seden - like in Minnesota
[19:06] Rose Springvale: good!
[19:06] Rose Springvale: ahhh
[19:06] muhammedyussif Wikinger: aleikomosalam
[19:06] Rose Springvale: i was missing cold weather today, how silly is that?
[19:06] Rose Springvale: it was in the 70s
[19:07] Rose Springvale: muhammed tells me he has a shorter version tonigth
[19:07] Rose Springvale: and there is a notecard in the agenda box that Andreu Donat prepared
[19:07] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Not so much Manen
[19:08] Rose Springvale: in short we ar e discussing whether and how we shoudl amend our covenants
[19:08] Cindy Ecksol wonders if Rose would miss cold weather if it had been below 25 for the last week where she is....
[19:08] Rose Springvale: to open them to a broader statement to more accurately reflect what AA has become. muhammed opposes this, and we have asked him to give us some information on shari'a law
[19:09] Rose Springvale: and i know cindy, just hard to adjust :)
[19:09] Rose Springvale: and it's been ten years, you'd think i'd be there!
[19:09] Rose Springvale: shall we let muhammed talk? hes up very very early
[19:09] Aileen Zessinthal: :)
[19:09] muhammedyussif Wikinger: 4 in the morning
[19:09] Rose Springvale shudders
[19:10] Rose Springvale: i liek to be up at 4, but i dont want to see people!
[19:10] muhammedyussif Wikinger: well?
[19:10] Rose Springvale: cindy, coem sit, and yes, go on muhammed please
[19:10] Aileen Zessinthal: I am ready to listen
[19:11] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Last Wednesday we discussed Sharia and a lot of opinions was brought forward
[19:11] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Rose asked me then to make a presentation of Sharia so we had some facts to support the discussion
[19:11] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I claimed that the original aim with Al Andalus project was to rule the sim according to Sharia Law
[19:11] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and suggested that we should do so
[19:11] Rose Springvale: hi amy, just getting started :)
[19:11] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I will first go back to a notecard written by the founder Michel Manen
[19:12] Rose Springvale: ahem
[19:12] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and then make an own survey
[19:12] Rose Springvale: one of the founders :)
[19:12] muhammedyussif Wikinger: It will take about ten minutes and then we will have a discussion. Michel wrote in very short after some cutting as follows
[19:12] Jamie Palisades is Online
[19:12] muhammedyussif Wikinger: One of the great challenges of the XXIst Century will be to develop a system of governance
[19:12] muhammedyussif Wikinger: combining authentically islamic principles and traditions with universal ideals of popular participation and human rights.
[19:12] muhammedyussif Wikinger: A vital term is that of SHARIA, translated as "way" or "path", which constitutes
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: the legal framework within which the public and some private aspects of life
[19:13] Online Tracker HUD: Uh-oh, no one is online! Try again later.
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence.
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Sharia deals with all aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues
[19:13] Leira Vaughan is Online
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws
[19:13] muhammedyussif Wikinger: pertaining to Sharia.
[19:13] Edward Lowell is Offline
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: It is more like a system of devising laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: We need to develop a new concept of islamic citizenship
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: of equal membership in the Ummah, based on a XXIst century understandings of Sharia,
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: where each citizen contributes to the common good,
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and where the Ummah is open to all who wish to join and participate
[19:14] Dave Attenborough is Offline
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: irrespective of nationality or religion, just as the Al-Andalus of a millenium ago.
[19:14] muhammedyussif Wikinger: That was Michel Manens vision.
[19:15] Amy Ferguson is Offline
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: It was met with criticism especially on the Sharia method.
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: The criticism was built on a lot of misconceptions grounded in actual media discussion
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: because of some gruesome events with high media value
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: The critics did not want to see the possibilities for cooperation
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: between at least three great cultures.
[19:15] muhammedyussif Wikinger: In all societies there are laws written and unwritten
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and if you look at them you will always find something disturbing and hard to accept
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: especially if you look at other peoples laws
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: In Sweden we criticise USA for applying death sentence to mentally handicapped,
[19:16] Leira Vaughan is Offline
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: others criticise Sweden for punishing buyers of "love"
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Saudi-arabia is criticised for harsch punishment for stealing
[19:16] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and Pakistan is criticised for awful methods for punishing adultory.
[19:17] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Not to be astonished our own laws always seemes to be the best and most acceptable.
[19:17] Tristan Saeed is Online
[19:17] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Because this is an experimental society for cooperation,
[19:17] muhammedyussif Wikinger: we can't use the total legal system of one culture.
[19:17] muhammedyussif Wikinger: We must careful choose what is possible to apply and what is possible to accept.
[19:17] muhammedyussif Wikinger: To use the word Sharia is important to attract muslims
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and because muslims are a minority here
[19:18] Rose Springvale: why is that?
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: we can afford if some others leave in disgust.
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: To prevent that we must have an educational attitude
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I believe we better start with the Sharia recommendations for governement.
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Each cultural group democratically chooses its representatives
[19:18] Rose Springvale: which are what specifically?
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: to a government to avoid bad managment grounded in lack of knowledge.
[19:18] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Each cultural group will take care of its own rules for conduct
[19:19] Brian Livingston is Online
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: between themselves which are accepted by the others
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: The owner or her representative leads the government
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and wears the ultimate responsibility for methods and results
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: In this format the "laws" or rules of Al Andalus
[19:19] padlurowncanoe Dibou is Online
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: slowly will develop in a way that can be accepted by the citizens
[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and in scha'allah stand as model for a 21th century society
[19:20] muhammedyussif Wikinger: in real life were we have a cultural mixture a multicultural society.
[19:20] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Questions please!
[19:20] Rose Springvale: i'll save mine, you all go on :)
[19:20] Satir DeCuir: ok can I ask something/say
[19:20] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
[19:20] Rose Springvale: please satir
[19:21] Rose Springvale: (please do :) )
[19:21] Satir DeCuir: isnt it a contradiction, the "purpose"/intent of AA be a place of different cultures/religions living together etc, and say its a democracy exactly for that freedom of thinking/beliefs, and at the same time stablish "sharia" as its base?
[19:21] Brian Livingston is Offline
[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: that's a good question
[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: this is the intersting thing with Al andalus
[19:22] Satir DeCuir: like, I believe there shouldnt be a base rl related law/religion linked to AA...its like say "here, we will follow sharia"...or "here, we believe in jesus and will enforce his mandaments, but its a free place ok?"
[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: It could be a contradiction -
[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: but we could try to overcome it...
[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and so benefit the RL problems
[19:23] Satir DeCuir: maybe we should let government dont have an official role in this, cause I think its a very personal thing, in what each person believe its right
[19:23] Grey Ashdene is Online
[19:23] Rose Springvale: muhammed, do you agree that the basic tenets of law are the same in each of the thre
[19:23] muhammedyussif Wikinger: the government will always take a stand
[19:23] Rose Springvale: three .. judaism, christianit and islam?
[19:23] Aileen Zessinthal: I have a comment about this when I am able to have a turn :)
[19:24] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ¨'yes - as being sister religions...
[19:24] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and have the Bible as common rule
[19:24] Rose Springvale: but i'm talking about the legal issues, not religion
[19:25] muhammedyussif Wikinger: our religions has formed the legal framework
[19:25] Satir DeCuir: sure aileen go ahead :)
[19:25] Rose Springvale: political participation, separation of powers, justice and the rule of law.
[19:25] Rose Springvale: (from current covenants.) yes please Aileen
[19:25] Aileen Zessinthal: well, what I am about to say is not my opinion or position
[19:25] Aileen Zessinthal: I am just trying to learn
[19:25] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
[19:25] Aileen Zessinthal: and make sure I have a good understanding
[19:25] Rose Springvale: that's good
[19:26] Aileen Zessinthal: so I will say something, and then correct me or confirm or add to it
[19:26] Aileen Zessinthal: anyway
[19:26] Aileen Zessinthal: in my understanding
[19:26] Aileen Zessinthal: shari'a and Islam as a religion are not exactly the same thing
[19:26] muhammedyussif Wikinger: true
[19:26] Aileen Zessinthal: perhaps they are more intertwined than we are used to in Western society, but still
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: Sharia is a legal tradition
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: so that is one thing
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: also
[19:27] muhammedyussif Wikinger: true
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: we can realize that many of our laws
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: in Western civilization
[19:27] Aileen Zessinthal: are based on what we term judeo-Christian values
[19:28] Aileen Zessinthal: without being a religion
[19:28] muhammedyussif Wikinger: true
[19:28] Aileen Zessinthal: or informing religious belief per se
[19:28] Amy Calamity: so how do individual liberties fit into that paradigm?
[19:28] Amy Calamity: Are they viewed as stemming from a christian paradigm?
[19:28] Rose Springvale: that is an important question. how do they muhammed?
[19:28] Aileen Zessinthal: so I am imagining that this is the state of things between the ideas of Sharia and the Islamic religion
[19:28] Aileen Zessinthal: or a similar state
[19:29] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Sahll we take Aileen first
[19:29] Rose Springvale: and i think Aileen that is part of the confusion
[19:29] Aileen Zessinthal: would you say this, muhammed, or am i missing a nuance or two?
[19:29] muhammedyussif Wikinger: think you are right Aileen
[19:29] Aileen Zessinthal: well, I am not saying that either condition is good or bad for Western or "eastern" society
[19:29] Aileen Zessinthal: just trying to get a clearer picture
[19:30] Alliez Mysterio is Offline
[19:30] Aileen Zessinthal: or for a cooperative society . . . still thining through all the implications
[19:30] Aileen Zessinthal: *thinking
[19:30] Rose Springvale: i don't think there is a value judgment to be made.. i think that is the point...
[19:30] Rose Springvale: the focus we've evolved to here in Al andalus is one of mutual collaboration
[19:31] Rose Springvale: peaceful coesxitance and appreciation of diversity
[19:31] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Amy's question - shall we take it now?
[19:31] Rose Springvale: i fear that the distinctions muhammed proposes will divide us rather than unite
[19:31] Rose Springvale: did you get your question answered Aileen?
[19:31] Aileen Zessinthal: yes, I just wanted to comment, I'm fine for the moment
[19:31] muhammedyussif Wikinger: could be - but it perhaps make a false unity
[19:31] Rose Springvale: k
[19:32] Rose Springvale: interesting conclusion.. false?
[19:32] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Amy asked about individual rights
[19:32] muhammedyussif Wikinger: false in meaning an acceptanse of rules in mind but not in heart
[19:33] Sadie Daniels is Offline
[19:33] Rose Springvale: not sure that makes sense, but go on and take amy's q
[19:33] Satir DeCuir: but that is what we would have if we have an "official" religion/laws no?
[19:33] Sadie Daniels is Online
[19:33] muhammedyussif Wikinger: we should not have an official religion - it would be three divided
[19:34] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Amy's question...
[19:34] muhammedyussif Wikinger: When Islam came to the arabs
[19:34] muhammedyussif Wikinger: it clearly gave the women a lot of personal freedoms
[19:34] Rose Springvale: smile
[19:34] Sudane Erato is Offline
[19:34] Rose Springvale: this is going to be interesting ...
[19:34] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and it also protected children especial females
[19:35] kelvinblue Oh is Offline
[19:35] muhammedyussif Wikinger: it regulated wit personal protection heirs
[19:35] muhammedyussif Wikinger: so the sharia rules is intended to protect the individual
[19:36] Rose Springvale: do women in isllam have rightst and power equal to men?
[19:36] muhammedyussif Wikinger: but compared to western values it seemes very strict
[19:36] Rose Springvale: rights and powers
[19:36] muhammedyussif Wikinger: equal value but not the same
[19:36] Amy Calamity: There are large, dominant christian communities where women in the US don't have the same rights as men
[19:36] Rose Springvale: ah
[19:36] Rose Springvale: true
[19:36] Rose Springvale: but under our constitution they are
[19:37] Rose Springvale: in the US, because religion and law are separate
[19:37] Rose Springvale: it is truly a matter of choie
[19:37] Amy Calamity: and you could argue that the freedom in secular american culture has created hubs of men that can do whatever they want to women and get away with it, and this hurts women's careers
[19:37] Rose Springvale: choice. is that so under shari'a?
[19:37] Rose Springvale: we are talking about the system of law though
[19:37] Rose Springvale: not the evolution of it as applied
[19:38] Amy Calamity: I guess I don't know enough about non-christian religions to comment on the difference
[19:38] Aileen Zessinthal: however, I see the greater opportunity or problem depending on exactly the "mechanisms" of sharia (remember, legal tradition, no religion) IS if civil discussion is available in which case the hadith, Quran etc can be used to provide a variety of laws and theory and rights including those for women -- it's fluid according to the age, or it can be
[19:38] muhammedyussif Wikinger: we could take the examole of women as they are treated in western society
[19:38] Grey Ashdene is Offline
[19:38] Amy Calamity: but in mye xperience, it's very hard to distinguish between those
[19:38] Amy Calamity: it often comes down to rhetoric
[19:38] Rose Springvale: well, right now i am asking a simple question
[19:38] muhammedyussif Wikinger: sharia prot4ect women from beeing used
[19:39] Rose Springvale: does shari'a afford the same rights to women as men. exactly
[19:39] muhammedyussif Wikinger: no
[19:39] muhammedyussif Wikinger: different rights
[19:39] Aileen Zessinthal: but can it?
[19:39] muhammedyussif Wikinger: noone is better or best
[19:39] Aileen Zessinthal: can the discussion be had?
[19:39] Rose Springvale: then how can we say we want it for a culture that includes other faiths?
[19:39] Rose Springvale: whose beliefs are not that
[19:39] Amy Calamity: but the bible also doesn't afford these rights, but the christian-based system of law in the us does
[19:40] Saffia Widdershins is Offline
[19:40] Rose Springvale: no
[19:40] Amy Calamity: or tries, or thinks it tries... or something
[19:40] Rose Springvale: amy
[19:40] Rose Springvale: the law in the us is totally secular
[19:40] Aileen Zessinthal: true enough, Amy
[19:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: that's the three headed governement
[19:40] Aileen Zessinthal: also I wouldn't say totally Christian based
[19:40] Rose Springvale: there is no difference in the rights of men or women
[19:40] Saffia Widdershins is Online
[19:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: different rules for the three religions
[19:40] Rose Springvale: but that assumes
[19:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: everybody satisfied :-)
[19:40] Rose Springvale: a) we have populations for only thre religions
[19:41] Aileen Zessinthal: lol :)
[19:41] Rose Springvale: and that they support the community
[19:41] Rose Springvale: with their work and their resources
[19:41] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
[19:41] Rose Springvale: and that is the think i have trouble with
[19:41] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes I see
[19:42] AnnieBlue Octavia is Offline
[19:42] Rose Springvale: because while we have been technically under this :"law" for 18 months, it isn't working
[19:42] Rose Springvale: and it serves to eat up MY time trying to explain things that are not here
[19:42] Maggy Portello is Online
[19:42] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
[19:42] Aileen Zessinthal: I also don't feel that I am a different cultural group nor do I identify as a Christian when I participate civilly, I feel much more universal than that . . . I think :)
[19:42] Desmond Shang is Offline
[19:42] Saffia Widdershins is Offline
[19:42] Rose Springvale: yes, aileen, i do too
[19:43] Rose Springvale: and then we have people like cindy
[19:43] Rose Springvale: who are .. multi religioned
[19:43] Aileen Zessinthal: but I also think I don't understand enough about the possibilities of Sharia to say yea or nay, at least as an experiment
[19:43] Soro Dagostino is Online
[19:43] Rose Springvale picks on cindy
[19:43] muhammedyussif Wikinger: We all look from our own point of view
[19:43] Aileen Zessinthal: but maybe that's taking it too lightly also, I don't know
[19:44] Aileen Zessinthal: hmm
[19:44] Rose Springvale: my proposal has not been to eliminate the right of muslims in al andalsu to join together as a voice
[19:44] muhammedyussif Wikinger: It is a problem if a person think he are the whole but really are a part
[19:44] Rose Springvale: but to broaden our definitions to include all the people who are active here
[19:44] Grey Ashdene is Online
[19:44] Aileen Zessinthal: well, I can say, though, that I came here, and maybe I am just one
[19:44] Aileen Zessinthal: to participate Islamically
[19:44] Aileen Zessinthal: to a degree anyway
[19:45] Rose Springvale: i believe Al andalus of the 13th century worked because the different cultures each brough skills. Are you muslim Aileen?
[19:45] Aileen Zessinthal: no, I am not
[19:45] Rose Springvale: nor am i
[19:45] Rose Springvale: and the problem is
[19:45] Satir DeCuir: I agree... I think if we entitle AA as "under sharia law", no one else but the followers of sharia law would come here
[19:45] Rose Springvale: we dn't have the knowledge to create this system
[19:45] muhammedyussif Wikinger: thatä's an educational problem
[19:45] Rose Springvale: and i think it deisrespectful to pretend we do
[19:45] Rose Springvale: so i'm in favor of much more discussion like htis
[19:46] Rose Springvale: and education
[19:46] AnnieBlue Octavia is Online
[19:46] Rose Springvale: but to goven the sim under sharia law closes doors to us
[19:46] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I agree
[19:46] Aileen Zessinthal: I do agree with that! education!
[19:46] Aileen Zessinthal: start at the beginning
[19:46] Rose Springvale: well, i think this kind of discussion is great
[19:46] Rose Springvale: and exactly waht i want from AA
[19:46] Aileen Zessinthal: I also want to say
[19:46] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Imagine how the indonesian and pakistanni feels
[19:46] Aileen Zessinthal: does anyone know who Rahael Raza is? I hope I said her name right
[19:47] Aileen Zessinthal: and I hope I offend no one, stop me if I do
[19:47] Rose Springvale: go on aileen, safe space to speak here
[19:47] Aileen Zessinthal: she is a Muslim woman
[19:47] Aileen Zessinthal: and she is very much into the freedom and advancement of women
[19:47] Aileen Zessinthal: and she does this in a framework of her faithfulness, I believe
[19:47] Aileen Zessinthal: she doesn't see herself contradicting
[19:48] Aileen Zessinthal: although there are many who disagree and are uncomfortable with her, of coruse
[19:48] Grey Ashdene is Offline
[19:48] Aileen Zessinthal: and I know I don't understand, again, completely with her
[19:48] Aileen Zessinthal: but the point is, I don't think Sharia precludes rights of women although the present manifestation of Sharia may
[19:48] Aileen Zessinthal: but that is . . . I may not know enough
[19:49] Rose Springvale: smile, but that's the point.. shari'a is interpretted differently by all countries
[19:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: there is a grewing faminist movement inside islam
[19:49] Mitch Hifeng is Online
[19:49] Rose Springvale: and sects within countries
[19:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: feminist
[19:49] Aileen Zessinthal: and an experiment like this, is a perfect place for those possibilities
[19:49] Aileen Zessinthal: yes, muhammad
[19:49] Aileen Zessinthal: or may be a perfect place, maybe it's not :)
[19:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: that is also a possibility
[19:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: for us
[19:50] muhammedyussif Wikinger: we can choose
[19:50] Rose Springvale: well, thank you muhammedyussif. you have done a great job
[19:50] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I'm happy to contribute
[19:50] Aileen Zessinthal: we do need more knowledge
[19:50] Aileen Zessinthal: yes, shukran, muhammed
[19:50] muhammedyussif Wikinger: afoan
[19:50] Rose Springvale: this afternoon we agreed to look at the issues for the week, and study the covenants
[19:51] Rose Springvale: as well as the issues Andreu raised. I'd like to take a copy of this chat if you all agree
[19:51] Rose Springvale: and i'll combine it with the earlier discussion
[19:51] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
[19:51] Rose Springvale: and make it available for others who couldn't attend.
[19:51] Satir DeCuir: sure
[19:51] Aileen Zessinthal: I agree
[19:52] Rose Springvale: and then next week, we'll see what thoughts ahve emerges. and i ask that you take a look at the first part of our covenants, and see if there is language that accomodates what we want. I've drafted some
[19:52] Rose Springvale: but this IS a democracy
[19:52] Rose Springvale: and not a monarchy :0
[19:52] Rose Springvale: I'll put the notes out in group chat
[19:53] Rose Springvale: and if you can't come next week but want to contribute, just send me waht you have
[19:53] muhammedyussif Wikinger: would be nice - wher dio I find this convenant?
[19:53] Rose Springvale: on the land tab muhammed
[19:53] Rose Springvale: just click anywhere in the sim
[19:53] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
[19:53] Rose Springvale: at the top of the page on your screen where it says al andalus
[19:53] Rose Springvale: then go to "covenant"
[19:53] Montana Laurasia is Offline
[19:53] Rose Springvale: only the part to "let's find out" is under discussion
[19:54] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I see
[19:54] Excalibur Longstaff is Offline
[19:54] Aileen Zessinthal: I will go now, thank you all of you for your thoughts, I can see everyone cares deeply :)
[19:54] Aileen Zessinthal: bye!
[19:54] Rose Springvale: much of the rest will be amended, but that has to do with things that are no longer applicable.. written before the sims wer ready
[19:54] Rose Springvale: thanks Aileen
[19:54] Satir DeCuir: bybye aileen, thanks for coming
[19:54] muhammedyussif Wikinger: bye salamo'aleikom
[19:54] Aileen Zessinthal: :)
[19:55] Bells Semyorka is Online
[19:55] Delia Lake gave you InWorld Amphitheatre, InWorld Studios (65, 51, 28).
[19:55] Rose Springvale: so... does anyone have anything else?
[19:56] Satir DeCuir: not me
[19:56] Grey Ashdene is Online
[19:56] Amy Calamity: bye everyone, thanks for letting me sit in!
[19:56] Rose Springvale: just got a note from Delia Lake, she's being inteviews on her sustainability work tomorrow at 6 slt
[19:56] Amy Calamity: :)
[19:56] Satir DeCuir: yw Amy, bybye :))
[19:56] Rose Springvale: amy, thank you for coming and helping us ask hard questions
[19:56] muhammedyussif Wikinger: bye
[19:56] Rose Springvale: hope to see you around moere!
[19:57] Rose Springvale: muhammedyussif, thanks again.. i know how much you put into this presentation and i truly appreciate it
[19:58] muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
[19:58] kelvinblue Oh is Online
[19:58] Tinker Imako is Online
[19:58] muhammedyussif Wikinger: bye for now
[19:58] Satir DeCuir: bybyee
[19:58] Rose Springvale: and i'm exhausted, and promised to be out of here by 8
[19:58] Rose Springvale: bye!
[19:58] Satir DeCuir: need to go too
[19:58] Bells Semyorka is Offline
[19:58] Satir DeCuir: bye cindy, rose
[19:58] Rose Springvale: satir, i sent you email, did you see?
[19:58] Satir DeCuir: :)
[19:58] Satir DeCuir: yes
[19:59] Rose Springvale: did you reply? :)
[19:59] Satir DeCuir: hm no
[19:59] Rose Springvale: lol
[19:59] Rose Springvale: okay
[19:59] Rose Springvale: soliel is going to be in ischia on friday and i have a guy who wants to play guitar on saturday.
[20:00] Rose Springvale: wasn't sure about the guy in ischia .. but he's supposed to be good, can put him somewhere :)
[20:00] Satir DeCuir: yes
[20:00] Rose Springvale: thought i'd see how friday goes
[20:01] Satir DeCuir: from sl blog: We are scheduling a 60 minute maintenance window beginning at 5:30am PST.
[20:01] Rose Springvale: on what day?
[20:01] Satir DeCuir: tomorrow
[20:01] Rose Springvale: ah
[20:01] Rose Springvale: maybe they will FIX something
[20:01] Rose Springvale: i'm so tired of crashing!
[20:02] Bells Semyorka is Online

basis of law, discussion one

Transcript of meeting 1, discussing amendment of Covenants of Al Andalus sims.



Rose Springvale: first lets take care of housekeeping then i'll give muhammed the floor
muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don't dust Rosy
Rose Springvale: Today at noon, we have Joaquin coming to liven up the market
Micael Khandr: Great--that will be really cool--and he is living here now?
Andreu Donat: a personal vission on Sharia Rule and how we could organise the govenrment with some examples in Al-Andalus hsitory, a contribution to the dabte
Rose Springvale: the evening meeting last week asked for some social events, so we'l have jaoquin back saturday. If anyone wants to organize musicians, please let me know
Rose Springvale: i don't mind contacting, booking or paying, but doing that and being here for all the performances is too much for me right now
Elmerado Shamrock: hello
Rose Springvale: Okay.. library committee, did you have a meeting you want to repor ton?
Rose Springvale: Hi Elmerado
Andreu Donat: no meetin, my apologies, a busy Sunday, would it be Ok for the committe memeber to do it net Saturday?
Rose Springvale: no problem. lets chat a bit before you meet.. some new information for you
Micael Khandr: Later in the day Saturday (or very early in the morning Second Life Time)
Rose Springvale: please work tht out among yourselves. i don't want to take up time that we'll want for discussion okay?
Andreu Donat: 7 a.m. Second Life Time, Micael? Pip? Rose? the rets if anybody wishes to participate? for me is OK very early and late
Rose Springvale: is there anything else we need to deal with before muhammed speaks to us?
Rose Springvale: sounds fine to me, just choose and let me know
StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I just say
Micael Khandr: Yes for me . . .
StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I have two things
Rose Springvale: yes?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: last night's Convivencia Institute meeting was great
Micael Khandr: Thank you! :)
Rose Springvale: smile
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am a rose between two thorns again :)
Micael Khandr: Ow . . .
Rose Springvale: tried to come, got pulled away :(
Rose Springvale: smile
Pip Torok: rose any chance of a min or 2 to read the note?
Micael Khandr: np
Rose Springvale: i'm the rose here, sorry stu
Rose Springvale: lets let muhammed speak
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I must be the daisy
Rose Springvale: he's the agenda, we aren't going to rush
Rose Springvale: muhammed, you ready?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: okidoky Muh
muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
Rose Springvale: thanks
Rose Springvale: please start with a brief introdution if you will
muhammedyussif Wikinger: do i have 10 minutes or 17?
Rose Springvale: of who you are
Rose Springvale: as many as you need
muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I'm a retired psychiatrist who embraced islam 22 years ago after beeing atheist in 20 years
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Last Wednesday we discussed Sharia and a lot of opinions was brought forward.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Rose asked me then to make a presentation of Sharia so we had some facts to support the discussion.
bzbuza Woodget: salam alikom
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I claimed that the original aim with Al Andalus project was to rule the sim according to Sharia Law
Rose Springvale: hi bz
Andreu Donat: alaikum salam, bzbuza
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and suggested that we should do so.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I will first go back to a notecard written by the founder Michel Manen and then make an own survey.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and then we will have a discussion. Michel wrote in short as follows:
muhammedyussif Wikinger: One of the great challenges of the XXIst Century will be to develop a system of governance
muhammedyussif Wikinger: combining authentically islamic principles and traditions with universal ideals
muhammedyussif Wikinger: of popular participation and human rights.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Islam, of course, is not simply a religion in the secular, Western understanding of the word -
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that is, a private faith that should be limited only to an individual's inner life-
muhammedyussif Wikinger: but a complete vision of life including both the spiritual and the material,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: the religious and the political, a legal system and a political covenant.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: This vision is founded and built upon a number of core ideas,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: such as SHURA, translated as "consultation" or "council".
muhammedyussif Wikinger: The principle that believers should conduct their own affairs by mutual consultation
muhammedyussif Wikinger: is of fundamental importance in developing a truly islamic system of governance for the XXIst Century .
muhammedyussif Wikinger: A second vital term is that of SHARIA,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: translated as "way" or "path", which constitutes the legal framework
muhammedyussif Wikinger: within which the public and some private aspects of life are regulated
muhammedyussif Wikinger: for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Sharia deals with all aspects of day-to-day life
muhammedyussif Wikinger: including politics, economics, banking,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws pertaining to Sharia.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: It is more like a system of devising laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Athough the core concepts of Shura and Sharia are unchanging,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: their understanding and application has changed along the centuries, as Islam itself has changed.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: The Al-Andalus project aims to build upon the core principles of Shura and Sharia
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and develop an open, diverse, fun community with its own system of governance
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and justice system, so as to become a beacon of what a forward-looking,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: dynamic Islamic community could look like in the XXIst century.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: In this way, Second Life's Al-Andalus would mirror the Al-Andalus of 1000 years ago,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: when Cordoba and Moor Spain had become a cultural, intellectual, artistic and spritual beacon
muhammedyussif Wikinger: not only for muslims everywhere, but for the entire world
muhammedyussif Wikinger: In order to succeed in building the Al-Andalus project,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: we need to refer to a third fundamental islamic concept - the UMMAH,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: or worldwide community of believers (ummat al-mu'minin).
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Al-Andalus can only be built and succeed if a Second Life Ummah
muhammedyussif Wikinger: can get together individuals who are willing and ready to contribute,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: work and cooperate in bringing this project to life.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Therefore, the Al-Andalus Ummah will include anyone who wishes to become actively
muhammedyussif Wikinger: involved in this project, whether or not they will end up owning land in the Al-Andalus sim or not.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: We need to develop a new concept of islamic citizenship, of equal membership in the Ummah,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: based on a XXIst century understandings of Shura and Sharia,
Rose Springvale: excuse me
muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
Rose Springvale: We've all read Michels words. But we are here to talk about Al Andalus as it has developed after 1.5 years
Rose Springvale: michel is not here
Rose Springvale: nor have we seen an Ummah of beliievers come forward.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: ok - I'm just coming to my own conclusions
Rose Springvale: okay, thanks
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think Manens vision is important to undestand why we are here
muhammedyussif Wikinger: where each citizen contributes to the common good, and where the Ummah is open to all who wish to join and participate,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: irrespective of nationality or religion, just as the Al-Andalus of a millenium ago.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: That was Michel Manens vision
muhammedyussif Wikinger: . It was met with criticism especially on the Sharia method.
Rose Springvale: have you been in contact with him muhammed?
Rose Springvale: because i dont' think that was in fact his vision
muhammedyussif Wikinger: The criticism was built on a lot of misconceptions grounded in actual media discussion
muhammedyussif Wikinger: no - I jus have read and listened to his talks some years ago
Rose Springvale: okay, can we focus on now then?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: because of some gruesome events with high media value
muhammedyussif Wikinger: The critics did not want to see the possibilities for cooperation between at least three great cultures.
Rose Springvale: i will be honest and tell you that michel has lost all credibility with many people involved here
muhammedyussif Wikinger: In all societies there are laws written and unwritten
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and if you look at them you will always find something disturbing and hard to accept
muhammedyussif Wikinger: especially if you look at other peoples laws
muhammedyussif Wikinger: In Sweden we criticise USA for applying death sentence to mentally handicapped,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: others criticise Sweden for punishing buyers of "love".
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Saudi-arabia is criticised for harsch punishment for stealing
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and Pakistan is criticised for awful methods for punishing adultory.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Not to be astonished our own laws always seemes to be the best and most acceptable.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: :-)
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Because this is an experimental society for cooperation,
muhammedyussif Wikinger: we can't use the total legal system of one culture
Micael Khandr: :)
muhammedyussif Wikinger: We must careful choose what is possible to apply
Rose Springvale: exactly
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and what is possible to accept.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: To use the word Sharia is important to attract muslims
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and because muslims are a minority here
muhammedyussif Wikinger: we can afford if some others leave in disgust.
Andreu Donat: you are right, muhammedyussif, but from 1948 we have the Universal Declaration of Rights, adn this should be the limit and the reference to any legislation...
muhammedyussif Wikinger: To prevent that we must have an educational attitude.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I believe we better start with the Sharia recommendations for governement.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Each cultural group democratically chooses its representatives
muhammedyussif Wikinger: to a government to avoid bad managment grounded in lack of knowledge.
Rose Springvale: please define cultural group
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Each cultural group will take care of its own rules
muhammedyussif Wikinger: for conduct between themselves which are accepted by the others.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: The owner or her representative leads the government and wears the ultimate responsibility for methods and results.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: In this format the "laws" or rules of Al Andalus slowly will develop
Rose Springvale: wait
muhammedyussif Wikinger: in a way that can be accepted by the citizens and in scha'allah stand as model
muhammedyussif Wikinger: for a 21th century society in real life were we have a cultural mixture . multicultural society.
Rose Springvale: isn't this what the govenment task force already discussed and discarded?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Qestions please!
muhammedyussif Wikinger: no - it was proposed paralelly
Rose Springvale: 11:28] Rose Springvale: please define cultural group
muhammedyussif Wikinger: a cultural group has about the same habits and views on how to behave
Rose Springvale: so political parties?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that depends if they eat with forkes or with knives
muhammedyussif Wikinger: or with sticks
Pip Torok: yes ... there is the question of private life ... i and many will want to be very sure that there is no interference in what we are pleased to call our private life and pleasures etc .. and look askance at strictures that do not already apply to public life (like abuse\0
Micael Khandr: Just for information sake, here's what the Task Force reported: Generally speaking, the Committee was divided upon whether to have a loosely developed governance model (e.g., a Sultan and a Council responsible for things) or a more developed structure, with laws (rights and responsibilities) and process for decision-making outlined in detailed.
Those who tended toward the Sultan-Council model were interested in trying to hold onto the Islamic roots of Al Andalus, although not requiring Muslims as leaders.
Those who tended toward a more constitutional structure were interested in due process of law and issues related to representation.
Rose Springvale: i'm sorry, it is a serious question
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Pip that depends on the cultural group you want to keep to
Pip Torok: so my question ... what would AA sharia s reaction to my reservations be?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: muslims for example will have special demands on behavior in private life
Rose Springvale: but muhammed
Rose Springvale: that works in real life. Not in virtual worlds
Rose Springvale: how do you apply the law? how do you enforce it
muhammedyussif Wikinger: we don't enforce - we just discuss
Rose Springvale: does your right to behavior extend beyond pips right to privacy?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that depends if he want to be muslim oor christian or jew
Rose Springvale: oh
Rose Springvale: so you are defining cultural groups as RELIGIOUS groups
Rose Springvale: yes?
Rose Springvale: what if he wants to be atheist
muhammedyussif Wikinger: in a way yes
Rose Springvale: what if he is buddhist
Rose Springvale: what if he is hindu?
Pip Torok: (or agnostic)
Rose Springvale: or pagan?
Micael Khandr: Part of the issue, muhammed, is that --although there are muslims here--there really isn't a "jewish" community or a "christian" community.
Andreu Donat: or spiritualist/panteist, as I define myself... ;-)
Rose Springvale: or a muslim community
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that is the vision I came here for
StuiChicanne Darkstone: may I represent a view ?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have condensed it into a short notecard
Rose Springvale: give it to me and i'll put it in the box stui
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it was not prepared
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wrote it just now
Rose Springvale: well, then just copy paste
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I did read :)
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I do not believe in the concept of Sharia and shura on many counts and nor do I believe in the concept of an Ummah.
I believe that the terms have not been adequately represented, and that as the pre-requisite for participation is some level of belief, and more especially how the basis of the laws would be derived from the Muslim Qu'ran, how could people who do not read nor hold the Qu'ran to their hearts as the true view of god or the compass of their culture be expected to abide by laws based upon the word of another faith. That would be a life of hypocrisy.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I believe that it would be better to have a govt and laws drawn up with the view to someone being a human not a believer.
I believe in no set religion and I know that a set of laws centred around the Qu'ran would never respect my way of life, and as such I would be unable to respect it's decisions or it's work, if I am one of the ones who is expected to leave in disgust, I shall not, I will work to bring people to a more open minded view. That is the future, it is progressive and it is much the better way for people of the 21st century rather than to hark back to 1000 years previous where people looked to Al Andalus as a beacon in a dark time, not another bright light and guiding star in a galaxy of opportunity such as is the world today.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: the fact is stui that a lot of people follows the Qur'an...
StuiChicanne Darkstone: they may
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but why would you cater especially for one group
muhammedyussif Wikinger: if we want to live in the same society we have to adjust both side
StuiChicanne Darkstone: when there are others ?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: sides
Rose Springvale: let me refocus the conversation a bit if i mah
StuiChicanne Darkstone: you say that the muslims must be attracted by using the term
Rose Springvale: may
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but
Rose Springvale: wait
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that was manens vision-- to attrract muslims
Rose Springvale: the issue here is NOT do we exclude muslims or their way of life
StuiChicanne Darkstone: surely they ought to come with as open a mind as any other participant
Rose Springvale: but do we broaden our covenants to recognize that we are of many views here
Rose Springvale: and trying to be democratic with diversity
Rose Springvale: manens vission was one of democracy muhammed
Rose Springvale: he is a catholic
muhammedyussif Wikinger: the vision is to build bridges
Rose Springvale: how could he have a vision to attract muslims?
Andreu Donat: that's what my long note suggested, in a short version, Rose, and with some historical examples
Rose Springvale: and since he is not here
StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are not here to set people up with a view to attracting one group
muhammedyussif Wikinger: and if we want that we must respect the different coasts
StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are here to bring together different people
Rose Springvale: nor has he followed through with ANY of his promises, why would we even consider "his vision"
Micael Khandr: A sidebar here is that whatever the original intention of AA was, the reality is that these certain people are here now--from my "religious" standpoint--this is the reality God has presented us with . . .
StuiChicanne Darkstone: to learn to live together and work towards common ground and goals
Micael Khandr: Yes.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: if one group will not bring themselves to the table
StuiChicanne Darkstone: that is their loss
Rose Springvale: andeu has made good points as well
Rose Springvale: and stui
StuiChicanne Darkstone: they should come without being tempted like a donkey with a carrot
Rose Springvale: Al Andalus weas a vision in the dark age, but it was no nirvana
Pip Torok: But Rose the credibility or behaviour of anyone (Manen here) shdnt reflect on the validity of IDEAS he has ....
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it shouldn't Pip
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but it will
Rose Springvale: Pip, what i am saying is that it is our ideals here now that matter
StuiChicanne Darkstone: at least with some
Pip Torok: IMO ideas should be examined AS IDEAS
Micael Khandr: Part of me was attracted to AA by the vision muhammed has articulated--and I do think I understand what you are getting at, muhammed--but another part of me recognizes that given our presetn community, specifdically muslim terms may actually work against the development of a tolerant community.
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I just mentioned manens ideas to give the right background
Rose Springvale: welcome jamie
Jamie Palisades nods, listens
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I mean differences must be made clear fisrt
muhammedyussif Wikinger: before adjustments
muhammedyussif Wikinger: first
muhammedyussif Wikinger: you can't compromise before the challenge is there
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I hope people will allow me the partial self indulgence of asking Muhammed how he envisages my interaction in a community governed by Sharia Law ?
antara Ansar: hello
Rose Springvale: i think it is important stui
StuiChicanne Darkstone: as I do rather stand as a test to his principles
Rose Springvale: hi antara
Micael Khandr: Actually, that would be helpful, Muhammed--it gets to the heart of the issue.
Andreu Donat: I think we must appreciate muhammedyussif effort to update Sharia and Al-Andalus, even if I don't agree in the way, and maybe we could arrive to a consensus, but we shouldn't pretend to be islamiconline.net, fantatsic SIMS that I recommedn btu to which I wouldn't belong...
StuiChicanne Darkstone: if he could tell me how Sharia would assist me to behave
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that depends on which group you choose to belong to - stui
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I should imagine I do not belong to a group
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am of no recognised faith
Pip Torok: yes ... but the concept of GROUPS cd well be divisive
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think I am god
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I am gay
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I mean Sharia is at first only applied to ythe method of governement
StuiChicanne Darkstone: how does Sharia deem to deal with my homosexuality ?
Cindy Ecksol wonders if "don't ask don't tell" would even be enough...
antara Ansar: there is nothing mentioned precisely to dealing with homosexuality
Rose Springvale: we are a community of acceptance.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: wonders if a heterosexual is asked to not tell
Cindy Ecksol: exactly my point, stui
Rose Springvale: but i'd like to hear muhammeds reply
Andreu Donat: but it is the fact of Sharia rule, in abstract, what i dont like, muhammad, I think, as I try to explain my note, we should reflect in a sort of way the tolerant and open aplliaction of Sharia inc etain periods of Al-Andalus (not Almoravids or Almohads...)
Micael Khandr: So, Muhammed, follw up on the idea you put forward--can there be a community of "non-community" types?
Jamie Palisades thinks .. hmmm .... Muslim quarter, Jewish quarter, Christian quarter ... Stui quarter! hmmm
Cindy Ecksol: a community of communities....not a community of individuals
StuiChicanne Darkstone: the precedents that you allude to Muh, are they based upon 1000 years ago ?
Micael Khandr: Well, Jamie, that may be the solution, existentially!
muhammedyussif Wikinger: Micael - that is not my vision - in a muslim society gay behavior is not accepted
Cindy Ecksol: now that I think about it, that's really how it worked back then
StuiChicanne Darkstone: oh
Jamie Palisades watches Muhammed type ... listens
Micael Khandr: OK--that is helpful to clkarify.
Micael Khandr: clarify.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it's not going to be butlins for me I suppose
antara Ansar: May I tell you something about Sharia to correct some opinions?
Cindy Ecksol: so muhammedyussif, do you then reject contact with a community that permits homosexuality?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: no Rose
Cindy Ecksol: or can an islamic community still live side by side with other communities?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: sure - i hope so
Cindy Ecksol: and what would the interaction look like?
muhammedyussif Wikinger: so it will be in RL
Joaquin Gustav: hello
Jamie Palisades waves at the politely early artist
Andreu Donat: Cindy, that's we should prove and practise here, in one the most opne ways existed in histpry, combined with art and science progress, Al-Andalus
muhammedyussif Wikinger: that's up the the govenment council
muhammedyussif Wikinger: to make up
Joaquin Gustav: i am neigbor too now, lol
Jamie Palisades: :D
Rose Springvale: hi joaquin, we'll wrap up here in ten minutes. yes jaoquin is our newest citizen
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wonder if Sharia is undefined because it makes it easier to side step important issues
Rose Springvale: muhammed
muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
Rose Springvale: you brought some of michel's "vision" here first
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and if the precedents stand on account that they serve those in powerful situations
Rose Springvale: on september 17, 07
muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes
Rose Springvale: when we had had our first 'griefing" for sharia law
Andreu Donat: Sharia is interpreted, and in Al-Andalus the interpetaion was very tolerant durant certain periods, i-e. wine was quite tolerated
Rose Springvale: here is what he said: typos and all
Rose Springvale: . I can tel lyou hand on heart id rather tear it al ldown than stand for any inequality and intolerance and repression here among the people who join
Micael Khandr: In a way, muhammed, I think your strong voice here--as well as Stuis--allows us to experiment with what a larger community that holds both of you--and us--looks like.
Rose Springvale: that is the only reason Al Andalus lived beyond that first six months
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I will say something that will bring the conversation bang up to date
Rose Springvale: i'm not willing to support a community that is not fully open
Andreu Donat: I agree, Micael, and thta's what we must preserve with a form of rule that is both democratic and respect all form of view, included minorities like homoseuxuals or another groups
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Obama is in the white house, the head of a country that would not have allowed him to sit on a bus at one point unless there were no white passengers to take his seat from him
antara Ansar: The main principle of Sharia is called Ejtehad ... it means to try to find out or to work upon something. So Sharia was intended to be dynamic ... going with time and with the needs of the community. So talking about principles of 1000 or 1400 years ago is wrong but in fact what is practiced in many places nowadays, not because Islam wants it to be that way but more because of patriarcial communities liking the idea that a woman inherits half of what a man inherits and the possibility of using religion to supress.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: would we choose govt that would make that situation perpetual
StuiChicanne Darkstone: or would we choose the path of freedom of choice ?
Andreu Donat: some interpretaions of Sharia in Al-Andalus were mor eopne than some today...
Rose Springvale: thanks antara, that's an important point of view
muhammedyussif Wikinger: would we build bridges or not...?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I invited you to tell me if you would build a bridge Muhammed
StuiChicanne Darkstone: you deigned to withold the information I invited you to give
Micael Khandr: Yes, I think we are building bridges--right now--and that perhaps the premature definition or n aming it one thing or the other may mess that up.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: when you are prepared to enlighten me
Rose Springvale: lets not make it personal stui, this is about communicating
Cindy Ecksol: who is not building bridges? seems to me that you want to sever the bridges to avoid things you don't like in the non-muslim community
StuiChicanne Darkstone: then perhaps we can know :)
Jamie Palisades: I;m sorry that more of you did not have the opportunity to visit Beirut at its modern peak in the 1970s ... it gave great hope for the possibility of tolerance .. as did Baghdad a thousand years ago .. and Andalusia duering the period we model here ....
Micael Khandr: Yes.
Jamie Palisades: How to go forward, Rose?
Rose Springvale: andreu typing.. then i'll take over
Andreu Donat: I tried to put to your consideration two models inwhich, even if Sharia ruled, there was the most democratci sate in Europe at that time, even a sortof republic... I would adappt some of these examples but WITHOUT Sharia rule, but with Sharia spirit...
antara Ansar: This is not my point of view ... it is the principle of Sharia. The Talmud and the Sharia have the same idea but the Sharia was intended to develop. This was the case at first. An example was when a famine led to hunger ... the cutting off of the hand for stealing was stoped.
Andreu Donat: with tolerant Sharia spirit
Rose Springvale: okay
Micael Khandr: I have rwead Andreu's notes on this, and find them very persuasive.
Rose Springvale: The points you are all making are exactly what we are here to do..
Rose Springvale: learn from each other and understand
Rose Springvale: but by making one set of lawas apply to a sim
Rose Springvale: when most of the people here have NO clue, myself included
Rose Springvale: what those laws are , seems very dangerous
muhammedyussif Wikinger: I agree
Rose Springvale: What i 'd like to do is recall that we are a democracy
Pip Torok: i agree too
Andreu Donat: yes, Rose, so we must define better
Rose Springvale: and make our covenants such that there is room for all opinions
Rose Springvale: continue the discussions
Rose Springvale: but recognize our breadth
Rose Springvale: that does not eliminate the rule of sharia law
Rose Springvale: nor does it embrace it
Rose Springvale: but i also think we deserve more discussion
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I believe that the laws of secular nations are more in accordance with human rights
Andreu Donat: that's why I propsed Sharia spirit to inspire us in Al-Andalus most tolerant version
Rose Springvale: with time to consider the arguments made
StuiChicanne Darkstone: therefore it would be a better model to adopt
Andreu Donat: and according to Universal Declarartion of Rights
Elmerado Shamrock: what is the point of the meeting then rose, what is the mission of the Alandalus group or sim?
Rose Springvale: lets reconvene next week
Rose Springvale: and if you feel strongly about this
Jamie Palisades: To work somethign out, Elmer :)
Rose Springvale: take a look at our covenants
Rose Springvale: and come back with language
Rose Springvale: we are looking primarily at the fist two paragraphs
Rose Springvale: first*
antara Ansar: I will leave you because I don't live here, so I don't want to take part in the way you govern yourself. I just came because I got the note and thought " interesting theme ! "
Rose Springvale: antara
antara Ansar: good bye
Jamie Palisades smiles ... Ejtehad. Everyone's opinions matter.
Rose Springvale: your voice is welcomed and appreciated
antara Ansar: only thanks
Rose Springvale: we are open to all opinions
Rose Springvale: because the idea of this community is not just for those who live here
Rose Springvale: now
Elmerado Shamrock: I don't see a mission or vision so far for this group, let a lone a unified message
Rose Springvale: may i take a transcript of this meeting
Micael Khandr: Yes.
Rose Springvale: so i can share it with the evening group
Rose Springvale: muhammed?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Rosy I agree to being taken down
Cindy Ecksol: sure
muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes - and in scha'allah I will try to wake up at that time
antara Ansar: It was intended to be democratic ... going with time, even the election was pure democratic at first but sadly it is nowhere the case today.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all I might be illegal by next week *LOL*
Rose Springvale: thanks.. anyone have objections. let me know
Andreu Donat: elmerado this SIM recreates Al-Andalus, for what it meant to the progress, contraray to the ignorance of may people about this contribution,.... then we are discussing about the form of government but I don't think this affects our common ground
Rose Springvale: antara are you talking about this sim?
antara Ansar: No
antara Ansar: about the Sharia
Rose Springvale: kk, thanks. good
Jamie Palisades: Only in California and NIgeria Stui :) and in both those places ...it's the haircut
antara Ansar: it was intended to be a democratic system
Andreu Donat: yes, Antara, but it has been demcoratically interpeted sometimes in history

Jaoquin Gustav to help Kick off New Year

On Wednesday, muhammedyussif wikinger will make a presentation to the citizesn on authentic muslim law, and why he believes we should not amend the covenants of the Al Andalus Sims to broaden our perspective to more closely match the practice in al andalus.

Following the meeting, Jaoquin Gustav will play in the market. He will play spanish guitar and latin tunes to bring shoppers to our market. Saturday night, he will also play in the Al Zahra theater, as a social event for our citizens.

Summary of Jan 14 Citizens Meetings

Meetings were held at 11 am and 7 pm.

1. Library Committee: Members are gathering material and are ready for a working group meeting. They will meet sometime the weekend of Jan 16-18. Watch group notices or contact Andreu Donat if you want to help.

2. a) Music: Rose discussed different musicians who want to play at AA and renewed her request for help. If anyone knows anyone who is interested in a paid position assisting with events, please pass along names. Request was made to include Fado in the program, and we agreed to look into it.

b) Conferences. Rose suggested a conference in the Spring on Virtual Democracy. Later suggestion of discussing the issues surrounding Gaza conflict was received more energetically, so we will try to get some experts from all sides to participate in discussions. We will try to form a colloquium on the issues, perhaps with the facilitation services of Convivencia.

c) Book group: Stui agreed to lead a discussion on Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth on Jan 28 or Feb 4. Milena Piccard has also agreed to come back and talk about Snow, as many people were not available for the discussion in December. TBD.

d) Other events: Convivencia and Bayt al H. events ongoing. Panel discussions based on AA history, art and architecture still planned. Thanks to Convivencia and MuslimServ for December/January events. The donations to the A.A. donations boxes through December were transfered to MuslimServ. (1771 L)

3. State of the Sims: Rose announced that she submitted an application for the Linden Prize on AA's behalf and is working on bringing the website up to date. If you have material you'd like to see included, please send to her. Talks are still going on with the Confederation of Democratic Sims.

Evening meeting additions:

-Residents at the evening meeting asked that we consider having more social dances, and perhaps follow up on the idea of a tapas/hangout place.

-Micael Khandr will present a talk on "Stability, Obedience, and 'Conversatio' at the Convivencia Institute on Tuesday (after President Obama's speech on January 20, 2009.

-more discussion on the appropriate form of government, with opinions favoring broader scope than Sharia system would allow. We will listen to all points of view.


Action since meeting: New citizen Joaquin Gustav will perform at the Souk market on Wednesday Jan 21 at noon (following the citizens meeting) and again on Saturday Jan 24, at 7 pm.

Linden Prize Application

As additional authentication of Al Andalus in Second Life we'd like you to see this draft machinima created by resident Draxtor Despres when filming for resident Eureka Dejavu's project, understanding Islam. This film was not used in the Understanding Islam project.

Movie

I'll be adding a list of links to outside the blogs and publications featuring Al Andalus.


Here is a nice blog about Delia's preservation project in Al Andalus:
Stumbling Along, I found this

and
pictures

I've been asked to post the project summary as submitted. It appears below.

Thanks.

Second life provides a unique opportunity for individuals from the virtual world to participate in discussions on the topics that traditionally have divided the physical world, led to lack of understanding and in the worst cases, violence. The goal of the Al Andalus project is to give people a chance to discuss those topics in a safe place where all voices count.

Al Andalus originally anticipated a democracy guided by the basic principals of authentic Islamic law, including political participation, separation of powers and justice. In thirteenth century Al Andalus, Muslim, Christian and Jewish people not only co –existed peacefully, but thrived in their contributions to science, art, literature and philosophy. By mirroring that time and place architecturally, we hoped that a diverse, vibrant, creative community of individuals from different cultures and religions would develop, and it has.

Another goal was to highlight the principles of Islam as a form of government without the taint of terrorism or fundamentalist sects so often presented by western media. As both Christianity and Judaism had historically violent periods in their past, our goal was to focus on the basic commonalities in governmental systems of different cultures rather than differences. For this reason, we've left the details of what government will look like to the citizens. What has developed is a direct democracy that has no specific religious focus, but very strong expectations of tolerance, understanding, service and respect for the rights of all individuals.

Beginning as two sims with an artistic interpretation of Al Alhambra, we've added 4 homestead sims to the project to expand the scope. Each of the homesteads has its own focus: Albaycin focuses on sustainable land and water use, and is coordinated by Delia Lake who has developed the space to resemble the ecosystem of the Basque region, Almunecar, which hosts the film studio of Second Life Journalist Draxtor Despres. Sacromonte hosts the workshop of one of our major architects, Marino Nuvolari, who built the Alhambra palaces and the Christian chapel, the Jewish Temple, and the Mosque, patterned beautifully after the Great Mosque of Cordoba. Our current project adds a library of architecture, art, literature, tolerance and historical works of the era. The Al Garnata homestead is dedicated to the library project.

Collaborations of First and Second life organizations are critical. We've had presentations on water conservation, health care, Sufism, the Metaverse Republic, and more. We've hosted lectures on Tolerance, The Future of Religions/Religions of the Future, (with the Extropia Sims,) and a peace conference, "the Global Handshake Fair." The sim features a magic carpet guided tour, available in English, Spanish and German, and over eighty notecard info points.

We celebrated the 2008 winter holidays with an Arabian Nights party, an open house at the offices of MuslimServ, a non-profit organization devoted to ending hunger, and the grand opening of the Convivencia Institute, professionals devoted to creating trustworthy space. We often feature traditional music, including Sephardic, gypsy and flamenco and hope to develop an institute to support world music in Second Life. We host hundreds of visitors each week.

So far, this can only happen in a virtual world. With continued awareness, exploration and communication, we believe that peaceful co-existence in the physical world can be achieved as well. Winning the Linden Prize would secure the future of the project for many years, as all prize money would be used to sustain the sims. We respectfully ask for your serious consideration, and thank you for the opportunity to tell you about Al Andalus in Second Life.

Summer Palace, Home of the Convivencia Institute

The Convivencia Institute has decided to use space in Generalife instead of the open space sim so that they are free to have as many people in their presentations as the sim allows. The Jewesh Quarter has been remodeled to give them a place to commune, and they have taken over the Summer Palace as program headquarters. On January 6, Convivencia hosted a grand opening of their new space, with music from residents Cindy Ecksol and Naftali Torok. Atheene Dodonpa brought her gorgeous early music as well.

Convivencia embraces the spirit of what Al Andalus is about, and we are very excited that they will be taking an active role in our community.

Here is a picture of the Real Life Summer Palace. (Rose's photo from April 2008) Kudos to builder Satir DeCuir for capturing the spirit of this lovely building and gardens for us in Al Andalus.

Stop by and see Micael, Conley, Cristobal and the rest of the Convivencia gang... you won't find nicer or more interesting people anywhere in SL.